[Paul Wilson]

Hi guys

I was thinking about this while discussing about another member's feedback.

He was talking about scammers and that there should be a better deal dispute system in place, so I thought of having a thing similar to name changes but on the thing on the right (with the rep, date joined, and amount of posts) that counts scam reports (both open and closed) against that member. This would be an extension of the deal dispute DB

(E.G. This is what I would look like:
Paul Wilson
Online
Apex-tier kek ****
HF l33t

Posts: 1,409
Joined: May 2015
Reputation: 66
Scam Reports: Open: X | Closed: Y
Warning Level: 0% )

This would stop scamming sprees and scammers dead in their tracks, as well as dissuade members from scamming by deepening the mark it has on their profile.

The one problem I see with this is fake scam reports. The solution to this would be a set of guidelines for a complete scam report, if these guidelines are not followed the report is removed completely and the reporter punished (similar to a rep abuse)

I would like to answer the likely question/comment of "HF does not get involved in Deal Disputes". There would be no direct punishment for scamming offsite, users would be free to read and judge all scam reports and formulate an educated opinion on the trustworthiness of the user in question.

Please tell me what you think.

[occupi]

I really like this idea. It makes the disputes much more visible. I like that at a glance I can tell whether I need to use more than my usual amount of caution. Great idea.

[TheTurboEngineers]

Looks like a great idea mate!

[Dowls]

Like trust scan? yours for example


then you can click on it and see all the disputes.
Spoiler (Click to View)



At least that's pretty much what you're describing from my POV.

Edit:Oh you want it on the right, I don't think that'd be that much of an improvement.

[PirateDavy]

Fuck yes bro, this is a really clean and nice idea. I like it ;)

[Paul Wilson]

Like trust scan? yours for example


then you can click on it and see all the disputes.
Spoiler (Click to View)



At least that's pretty much what you're describing from my POV.

kinda, but not reserved for ub3r and 3p1c who know how to use the search function in any case, but open for all members and directly visible from their profile.

The idea here is to leave a deep scar on scammers and prevent them from going on long scamming sprees on new members, experienced ones generally avoid each other for scamming, its mostly new on experienced in which case this is useless or experienced on new who dont have access to the trust scan and sometimes not even the PM.

[IDK]

kinda, but not reserved for ub3r and 3p1c who know how to use the search function in any case, but open for all members and directly visible from their profile.

The idea here is to leave a deep scar on scammers and prevent them from going on long scamming sprees on new members, experienced ones generally avoid each other for scamming, its mostly new on experienced in which case this is useless or experienced on new who dont have access to the trust scan and sometimes not even the PM.

I really like the idea. Because many time New members get scammed by high rep members because they think High rep = trusted

[JuiceProductions]

That's actually not a bad idea at all.

[Bluffer]

I think this has been implemented enough within the trust scan, if regular members want features like this, they need to upgrade, it shows that you value your HF account when you upgrade.

[CRT]

Theirs already enough tools in place to check if a member has scam reports on them. You can't expect Omni to spoon feed people.

[Paul Wilson]

I think this has been implemented enough within the trust scan, if regular members want features like this, they need to upgrade, it shows that you value your HF account when you upgrade.

Remember the idea of this is also to punish scammers, by publicly displaying all of their misdeeds, they will have to bear the shame of being marked a scammer in front of everybody. Additionally, many members with a trust scan will only ever use it when it concerns them. To add to this, members who have upgraded their accounts to 3p1c or ub3r have been here long enough to know how to look up a UID in the scam DB; we are trying to protect newer members who do not yet have access to these features.

For example: I want to upgrade to 3p1c, but I don't have BTC. I make a thread asking to exchange some currency. 20 people respond. How can I quickly and efficiently choose which person to trust? Do I have to look up every UID in the DDD?

Thanks for your input though, appreciate constructive criticism

[Omniscient]

I really like the idea. Because many time New members get scammed by high rep members because they think High rep = trusted

New members are just not savvy enough to not get scammed regularly. Since we have over 1000 new members per day it doesn't take much for a handful of them to be ripped off daily. Almost nothing I do will prevent that. At least nothing that won't also destroy seller sales to new members as well.

Remember the idea of this is also to punish scammers, by publicly displaying all of their misdeeds, they will have to bear the shame of being marked a scammer in front of everybody

You'll also encourage abuse. Members just don't realize how balanced things are between being labeled a scammer and those being targeted by competitors and trolls. For every tool I give to those scammed it also empowers abusers.

While it's easy to want change and a more robust system to fight scammers I have to also consider the effect on regular sales and how the community would accept the changes. You can't just change a system that's been in-effect for 7 years.

How can I quickly and efficiently choose which person to trust? Do I have to look up every UID in the DDD?

That's up to you how much diligence you want to have.

What we have now does work. It's a misconception that we have a large percentage of scams on HF. The percentage is negligible. I've had long threads and polls discussing the topic. And just because daily there are new Deal Dispute threads that doesn't mean each is legit and it also doesn't represent the hundreds of deals properly done without problem.

Idiots are often the one scammed. The most effective scams are exit scams and sold account scams. Neither of which can ever be effectively stopped.

[Bluffer]

Remember the idea of this is also to punish scammers, by publicly displaying all of their misdeeds, they will have to bear the shame of being marked a scammer in front of everybody. Additionally, many members with a trust scan will only ever use it when it concerns them. To add to this, members who have upgraded their accounts to 3p1c or ub3r have been here long enough to know how to look up a UID in the scam DB; we are trying to protect newer members who do not yet have access to these features.

For example: I want to upgrade to 3p1c, but I don't have BTC. I make a thread asking to exchange some currency. 20 people respond. How can I quickly and efficiently choose which person to trust? Do I have to look up every UID in the DDD?

Thanks for your input though, appreciate constructive criticism

"Members who have upgraded their accounts have been here long enough to know how to look up a UID in the scam DB."

Information like that is contained in the help documents, new members can read it and figure that out.

How do you know who to deal with? It's at any user's discretion but I would choose the member that a. has been on HF the longest b. the user who has many reputations that involve past exchanges or c. Who has the most overall positive reputations (I'd also read their negs to make sure they are not untrustworthy).

But trusting a member based off their rep isn't something that is very good to go off of because you would get burnt eventually.

[Paul Wilson]

I agree with some of what you're saying. Let me go over your points:

New members are just not savvy enough to not get scammed regularly. Since we have over 1000 new members per day it doesn't take much for a handful of them to be ripped off daily. Almost nothing I do will prevent that. At least nothing that won't also destroy seller sales to new members as well.

The idea is to have a meter of how trusted the member in question is. Many new members don't bother to read a member's rep, just look at the big green number and the blue userbar and assume they're trusted. Even those who do read this won't sift through multiple pages of green to find one scammer rep. When we give a meter right on the user's profile to be seen whenever by whoever, instead of just upgraded members after multiple clicks to access a trust scan, we will stop scammers dead in their tracks.

You'll also encourage abuse. Members just don't realize how balanced things are between being labeled a scammer and those being targeted by competitors and trolls. For every tool I give to those scammed it also empowers abusers.

I addressed this in my OP, by offering a strict set of guidelines for valid scam reports, and having severe punishments for reports debunked or not properly formulated, such as inability to post future scam reports and/or a closed account. The main issue here is troll accounts from 4chan or LF who just want to cause mayhem. To address this we simply need a stronger anti-multi system, which I understand is much harder than banning multi IP users on the spot (and have not been able to think of a solution)

While it's easy to want change and a more robust system to fight scammers I have to also consider the effect on regular sales and how the community would accept the changes. You can't just change a system that's been in-effect for 7 years.

This I agree with. I can see LF trolls coming on here and opening scam reports on random members just to cause havoc on the forum. A system that might work is one open scam report per IP or per user at a time.

That's up to you how much diligence you want to have.

Which member deserves to be punished more? The scammer or the one who wasn't as diligent as they should have been, maybe because they were tired or blinded with an ub3r approval, and offered a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

What we have now does work. It's a misconception that we have a large percentage of scams on HF. The percentage is negligible. I've had long threads and polls discussing the topic. And just because daily there are new Deal Dispute threads that doesn't mean each is legit and it also doesn't represent the hundreds of deals properly done without problem.

This may be a misconception, but it deters business from the site and gives it a bad reputation. Showing that the site is against scammers and taking measures to stop them would attract more buyers and sellers, allowing the forum's reputation to improve and to create a bigger income through more membership sales and/or stickies

Idiots are often the one scammed.

I would have to disagree with this, I know some very intelligent people who have been scammed, this is because elaborate scams are not cookie cutter scams, but custom tailored to the target. Don't tell me you've never been scammed before.

The most effective scams are exit scams and sold account scams. Neither of which can ever be effectively stopped.

This I also agree with, although we cannot stop a single scam, sprees can be deterred by this method.

[Omniscient]

The idea is to have a meter of how trusted the member in question is.

No meter will tell you how trusted a member is.

Many new members don't bother to read a member's rep

Then if that's true they won't read a trust meter either. And if they do it's likely going to lead to more scams because they will falsely believe member is trustworthy. Your idea is terrible. It does nothing to ensure new members don't get scammed.

Even those who do read this won't sift through multiple pages of green to find one scammer rep.

They should though. They do need to learn to navigate HF asap. I can't force tutorials on members and inform them more than we already do. We have stickies and Help Docs up the wazoo. It's actually only made it worse because I think they see all they need to read and just ignore it instead. I can't force people to be smart and educate themselves.

I addressed this in my OP, by offering a strict set of guidelines for valid scam reports

That's fucking stupid. Because we're not going to vet Deal Disputes. That would immediately violate my policy on staff getting involved.

The HF Marketplace is member driven. It's done at your own risk.

The main issue here is troll accounts from 4chan or LF who just want to cause mayhem.

Not that major of a problem or disruption to the Marketplace as you'd think. Lots of those accounts get banned quickly and recognized by the community. The requirements for +rep keeps them out of the Marketplace pretty effectively. Doesn't take much to keep trolls out.

To address this we simply need a stronger anti-multi system

You're ignorant. We already deal very effectively with it. You'd be surprised at how well we actually do in that regard. Every single upgraded account is reviewed carefully. I have excellent tools for that. This is why upgraded accounts get more permission in the Marketplace. Most of the real problems with the Marketplace are sold accounts. Something we monitor but it's hard to immediately catch these accounts and most are eventually caught and closed. I spend a great deal of time on this. The bulk of my time on HF actually.

Which member deserves to be punished more? The scammer or the one who wasn't as diligent as they should have been

Staff doesn't get involved in deals. Neither is punished because quite frankly it's none our concern.

This may be a misconception, but it deters business from the site and gives it a bad reputation. Showing that the site is against scammers and taking measures to stop them would attract more buyers and sellers, allowing the forum's reputation to improve and to create a bigger income through more membership sales and/or stickies

Yeah, that's it. Your'e gone. I've had enough of your bullshit.

I would have to disagree with this, I know some very intelligent people who have been scammed, this is because elaborate scams are not cookie cutter scams, but custom tailored to the target.

Exactly why I've closed your account. You fucked yourself. You can't tell me I have to do more to deter scammers and then tell me that scams are elaborate and custom tailored. You're a fucking moron to not undertstand how bad your own logic really is.