[Mister Slyther]

Many designers on forums and other platforms for freelancing are just designers but are not professionals.

- This is not particularly targeted towards the new people in design, but rather the designers who claim they have designed for years.

Let me tell you why...





Another reason is money, they are doing it just for the money not because designing is part of their life. This is for the $5-$10 designers who claim that they make quality logos and designs.

A post shared by a highly experienced Director named Chris Do:

[James Burnham]

Everyone starts from somewhere. Most of these guys don't know how to get better clients, so they adjust their prices and efforts to the clients they can find. If what they find on HF is a guy that coded an sms bomber (meaning he is also a beginner) then obviously he wont be able to charge $5k for a logo because the potential earnings of this sms bomber is $500-$1000 max. Imo, if a piece of software is unique enough, it will raise enough funds even with the crappiest gfx to afford a $10k logo. GFX are not the deciding factor in IM related forums. If you see at bhw, people sell SEO packages with way crappier gfx and still make money.

[Mister Slyther]

Everyone starts from somewhere. Most of these guys don't know how to get better clients, so they adjust their prices and efforts to the clients they can find. If what they find on HF is a guy that coded an sms bomber (meaning he is also a beginner) then obviously he wont be able to charge $5k for a logo because the potential earnings of this sms bomber is $500-$1000 max. Imo, if a piece of software is unique enough, it will raise enough funds even with the crappiest gfx to afford a $10k logo. GFX are not the deciding factor in IM related forums. If you see at bhw, people sell SEO packages with way crappier gfx and still make money.

As much as my post and thoughts may raise controversy, I'm fully aware of HF not being a dedicated forum for GFX or so.  But I've been hired by a few people here who paid for the work they deserve. Which means, there are people on this forum who are willing to pay the price for a quality service and work to be provided. That's probably 10%-20% of this forum, leaving 80% who are interested in only paying $5 for work that is not backed up with research, evaluation, and iteration.

Also, graphics are in fact deciding factors, first impressions have a huge role on receiving a potential customer, this is why Branding is very important. Many Creative directors have emphasized this. Probably not on a forum like this though.

Regardless, you need to go out of your comfort space if you wish to deal with businesses and professional people, which I have.

[Effexion]

As much as my post and thoughts may raise controversy, I'm fully aware of HF not being a dedicated forum for GFX or so.  But I've been hired by a few people here who paid for the work they deserve. Which means, there are people on this forum who are willing to pay the price for a quality service and work to be provided. That's probably 10%-20% of this forum, leaving 80% who are interested in only paying $5 for work that is not backed up with research, evaluation, and iteration.

Also, graphics are in fact deciding factors, first impressions have a huge role on receiving a potential customer, this is why Branding is very important. Many Creative directors have emphasized this. Probably not on a forum like this though.

Regardless, you need to go out of your comfort space if you wish to deal with businesses and professional people, which I have.

I think the same about writing quite a lot. So many people are charging next to nothing and delivering sub-standard work and it's ruining one of my sources of income.

[Nano]

branding is super important.
For a product its quite important to drop atleast 1000-2000$ on it. For something like a finance company i think you should be looking at 300-500$ (and maybe upgrade later)

[Mister Slyther]

branding is super important.
For a product its quite important to drop atleast 1000-2000$ on it. For something like a finance company i think you should be looking at 300-500$ (and maybe upgrade later)

I have to disagree with you on there (in regards to the pricing), no matter what kind of company it is, a logo has a job and a role. It's expensive and should be expensive despite the industry you're functioning in.

There are studios, agencies, and companies charging 25k - 100k+ for logos depending on the size of the company. This is logo alone. Most professional freelancers will do the job between 5k - 20k.

I think the same about writing quite a lot. So many people are charging next to nothing and delivering sub-standard work and it's ruining one of my sources of income.

I'd look it at like this. If people want to pay for cheap work and get a cheap result, they will resort to that.

Only people who want something quality will approach to using your service.

[Me$$iaH]

Interesting discussion, I think there are a few points that require addressing though...

1. Designer vs Professional Designer
Hack Forums as would anyone would know is by no means the "Go To" for Real Professional design, I would say the majority of people here pay the $15 or $20 for designs and know exactly the expectations when paying such low sums. A lot of businesses here are just one stop services provided by members that usually fizzle out after a few weeks or months of sales. So when someone is looking to purchase a logo or thread design it usually is under the assumption that they just want a quick delivery semi-good looking layout for their thread or store just so it looks better than a plain text.

You may on the odd occasion find members with established websites looking to pay upwards of $100 and I think this is where your video and discussion fits in most. Most designers who title their threads or themselves as "Professional", know that they are not by definition a certified "Professional Graphic Designer", it's more or less just a tacky marketing tactic to draw more audience as they believe their $20 service is better than "Johns" $5 service.

2. Design Processes
You mentioned that Designers here don't utilize fundamental design processes for their customers but that's the reality you deal with paying for rudimentary services on a community forum, on forums like these there just aren't any global standards any designers should follow. Neither the buyer or seller expect a design process to be involved with a $10-$100 graphics service. If you to spend just more than 12 hours on a $40 service that equates to only just $3 per hour... Most buyers expect a turnaround in a few days or less and give less care where their money is being invested, they just care for a design that is aesthetically pleasing enough to look better than a plain text thread. I've worked with some members on cheap graphics and not once have I ever been asked "how much of this $30 is being invested into brand strategy" or "How much researching will you be conducting". The most frequent questions I ever get asked is "How long until it's complete".

3. Low Prices and Over Delivery / Low Prices and Poor Designs
This is a debatable one. It really is just the fact you pay for what you get here. If you pay $10 on here and get a fantastic design great! Credit to the designer for the work they put in. However, if the design is terrible then what else did you expect? A lot of designers (not all) in the community here use the forums as a starting platform to build their first clientele using their own experience accumulated and are really just Amateurs by definition who have watched a few Photoshop videos or Illustrator Tutorials and practiced and built a portfolio from there over a few years (I fit myself into this category). This community is a good platform for them to make a small amount of side income on their efforts designing to enhance their portfolio and build a database of clientele in order to gain more experience and get a feel for the designing industry, and who's to say they can't do that. Buyers don't complain, they just spend their money somewhere else.

[Mister Slyther]

Interesting discussion, I think there are a few points that require addressing though...

1. Designer vs Professional Designer
Hack Forums as would anyone would know is by no means the "Go To" for Real Professional design, I would say the majority of people here pay the $15 or $20 for designs and know exactly the expectations when paying such low sums. A lot of businesses here are just one stop services provided by members that usually fizzle out after a few weeks or months of sales. So when someone is looking to purchase a logo or thread design it usually is under the assumption that they just want a quick delivery semi-good looking layout for their thread or store just so it looks better than a plain text.

You may on the odd occasion find members with established websites looking to pay upwards of $100 and I think this is where your video and discussion fits in most. Most designers who title their threads or themselves as "Professional", know that they are not by definition a certified "Professional Graphic Designer", it's more or less just a tacky marketing tactic to draw more audience as they believe their $20 service is better than "Johns" $5 service.

2. Design Processes
You mentioned that Designers here don't utilize fundamental design processes for their customers but that's the reality you deal with paying for avid services on a community forum, on forums like these there just aren't any global standards any designers should follow. Neither the buyer or seller expect a design process to be involved with a $10-$100 graphics service. If you to spend just more than 12 hours on a $40 service that equates to only just $3 per hour... Most buyers expect a turnaround in a few days or less and give less care where their money is being invested, they just care for a design that is aesthetically pleasing enough to look better than a plain text thread. I've worked with some members on cheap graphics and not once have I ever been asked "how much of this $30 is being invested into brand strategy" or "How much researching will you be conducting". The most frequent questions I ever get asked is "How long until it's complete".

3. Low Prices and Over Delivery / Low Prices and Poor Designs
This is a debatable one. It really is just the fact you pay for what you get here. If you pay $10 on here and get a fantastic design great! Credit to the designer for the work they put in. However, if the design is terrible then what else did you expect? A lot of designers (not all) in the community here use the forums as a starting platform to build their first clientele using their own experience accumulated and are really just Amateurs by definition who have watched a few Photoshop videos or Illustrator Tutorials and practiced and built a portfolio from there over a few years (I fit myself into this category). This community is a good platform for them to make a small amount of side income on their efforts designing to enhance their portfolio and build a database of clientele in order to gain more experience and get a feel for the designing industry, and who's to say they can't do that. Buyers don't complain, they just spend their money somewhere else.

Solid post.

To summarize my thoughts, this is indeed just an online community forum. Can't really expect too much of it from a design perspective, professional perspective, and many other perspectives.

Although I would like to say, some of the clients I received from this website are willing to pay the price for high-end/professional work to be delivered and researched.

The idea of people who think 10 or 20$ for a logo is a reasonable amount of money to justify quality work or a design service is a clear signification of having low standards, or they might have a low budget. But you get what you pay for, it's simple yeah.

High standards of work will not come cheap.

Very interesting read:

[Me$$iaH]

Can't really expect too much of it from a design perspective, professional perspective, and many other perspectives.

It's definitely a great point of discussion. I think there should be some level of expectation without argument from the Paid Graphic Marketplace in order to filter out what truly is a "poor design" or "newbie" designer, there's no saying every service on there is worth its value.

The idea of people who think 10 or 20$ for a logo is a reasonable amount of money to justify quality work or a design service is a clear signification of having low standards, or they might have a low budget. But you get what you pay for, it's simple yeah.

I would personally say off of my own opinion that I think it's generally just low budget rather than low standards. Most services here don't make enough to invest in a real package or it just wouldn't provide enough extra revenue to justify the price.

Although I would like to say, some of the clients I received from this website are willing to pay the price for high-end/professional work to be delivered and researched.

High standards of work will not come cheap.

I agree with you that high standards come at a fair price. Businesses who look to pay $1,000-$100,000 for their branding know exactly that it's an initial investment and an important one. It's the face and portrayal of who they are. Humans judge someone in the first "7 seconds" of meeting them, this applies to branding and how businesses are judged from a consumer level. The result of good branding and a real professional designing should provide a percentage of revenue boost into their business whether it's guaranteed or not, of course, if you want it guaranteed it comes at extra cost. There's a whole load of other reasons why branding is important but I'm not a specialist in this field it's just common sense.