[Navos]

Recently it has come to my attention that scams and exit scams are on the rise.

Recent cases here:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Have a look at this recent deal dispute:
https://hackforums.net/showthread.php?tid=6254812
Where Lukasi was scammed off $2,000.

As someone who has also lost $3,000 to an exit scammer, I know how it feels.
Here was my deal dispute with the scammer that got closed.
https://hackforums.net/showthread.php?tid=6244376

I used to deal with him for similar figures and he delivered so I never thought I had to use a MM.
But in the end trust is a fragile thing. He finally decided to exit scam with the last transaction out of greed.


Something has to be done to minimize these scams or even eliminate it and I have a few suggestions:
Spoiler (Click to View)
First, when we open a contract there is a field for us to input middleman.
See screenshot below
https://imgur.com/a/Qm4zmG3

Currently it is optional. I feel that another field to input the value of the purchase should be placed above the Middleman field.
And if the value surpasses $100, the Middleman field becomes mandatory instead of optional.

This can prevent a lot of scams from happening.

For purchase value above $5000, a 2nd Middleman field should appear for two Middlemans to be involved.

Why two middlemen? Because as I mentioned trust is a fragile thing, we can't place full trust on any online personnels.
This is not said to offend any honorable MM here.

It's that we need to see scams stop and Omni won't have to dedicate so much time to look at the DD sub forums and can focus on other stuffs.

Anyone, please feel free to improve my suggestion as you see fit and constructive.


Advice to buyers here on the forum:
Spoiler (Click to View)

I personally think that online trust is fragile, we cannot place our trust on the other user just because he is highly repped or a long-term forum member.

I have also encountered few such "high repped" people who have declined MM, they would be citing one of the reasons below:
1) "It's too much of a hassle."
2) "I'm trusted here, have been here longer than you and have more rep than you." (This would make some buyers feel guilty and trust them blindly)
3) "My method/mentorship is not going to work with a MM"

This is all despite me saying that I will cover all MM fees and show proof of me working on the method or else the MM still releases funds to them.

You should not buy from any seller (highly repped or not, it doesn't mean dung) if they refuse MM. Protect your own funds.

[Skorp]

And if the value surpasses $100, the Middleman field becomes mandatory instead of optional.

For purchase value above $5000, a 2nd Middleman field should appear for two Middlemans to be involved.

When you say mandatory, who would these middlemen be. I don't think Omniscient is going to have a middleman official group. Also what happens if no one wants to be a middleman or the buyer doesn't want to pay MM fees, both of you two unfortunately end up not having the deal take place. Yikes.

we cannot place our trust on the other user just because he is highly repped

Popularity/reputation means nothing.

[webdev77]

You can use a middleman or not. Most people getting scammed are failing to do even any amount of basic research prior to dealing anyways and there's nothing you can do to fix stupid.

[Cooligan]

I can never stress enough how important it is to use a trusted MM when dealing with people you don't know nor trust, and this is why. There are serial scammers in every marketplace, HF isn't special when it comes to that.

I doubt Omni will force members to use a MM since that would in a way be endorsing whatever MM they chose to use. Not directly endorsing of course, but almost by proxy. This thread would almost serve a better purpose in the Marketplace Discussions section as a PSA to new and old members alike. I think your point would get across better there, not to mention more marketplace-focused members would see it there rather than this section.

Also, no matter how much you push the service (I've been a MM on HF for over 10 years now so believe me I know how much this happens), people unfortunately still choose to deal without a MM either because they don't want to pay the MM fee, or they don't want a 3rd party being involved, etc etc etc..

I still think a solid middle-ground would be having a Middleman section on the forum. Nothing that's endorsed by HF whatsoever, but just a section where MM can offer their service thread so everyone else would eventually get used to the fact that we have a MM section for you to quickly go into, find one you like, and begin your deal. Rather than having to ask around the community about who's trusted, who's online and available, what their username is, etc etc..

[Navos]

When you say mandatory, who would these middlemen be. I don't think Omniscient is going to have a middleman official group. Also what happens if no one wants to be a middleman or the buyer doesn't want to pay MM fees, both of you two unfortunately end up not having the deal take place. Yikes.

There are already a few established MMs here, I won't mention names in case I offend those that I missed out on naming.
Omni can consider setting up an official middleman group with them.

If the buyer doesn't want to pay a fee, they can choose MM who don't charge a fee.

Popularity/reputation means nothing.

It is exactly what I meant.

I can never stress enough how important it is to use a trusted MM when dealing with people you don't know nor trust, and this is why. There are serial scammers in every marketplace, HF isn't special when it comes to that.

I doubt Omni will force members to use a MM since that would in a way be endorsing whatever MM they chose to use. Not directly endorsing of course, but almost by proxy. This thread would almost serve a better purpose in the Marketplace Discussions section as a PSA to new and old members alike. I think your point would get across better there, not to mention more marketplace-focused members would see it there rather than this section.

Also, no matter how much you push the service (I've been a MM on HF for over 10 years now so believe me I know how much this happens), people unfortunately still choose to deal without a MM either because they don't want to pay the MM fee, or they don't want a 3rd party being involved, etc etc etc..

I still think a solid middle-ground would be having a Middleman section on the forum. Nothing that's endorsed by HF whatsoever, but just a section where MM can offer their service thread so everyone else would eventually get used to the fact that we have a MM section for you to quickly go into, find one you like, and begin your deal. Rather than having to ask around the community about who's trusted, who's online and available, what their username is, etc etc..

Thanks for the constructive feedback. We need more of this to refine the initial suggestion.

But do note that my suggestion on enforcing a middleman to be used is not for it to auto generate a MM's name into the field.
But rather, we have to give the user a choice to input a Middleman of his/her choice. They will fill up that field themselves.

Your suggestion on opening up a Middleman sub-forum section is great and I do agree it should be set up.

Regarding the fact that people refuse to use MM because of the fee, there are already a few established MMs here that are doing it for free.
So the only reason I can think of why people still refuse to use those MM is because they don't know those MMs exist.

Hence, I do agree opening up a Middlemen sub-forum is a great idea to start with.

[webdev77]

Omni can consider setting up an official middleman group with them.

That categorically isn't happening. See the sticky thread.
https://hackforums.net/showthread.php?tid=5990007

But do note that my suggestion on enforcing a middleman to be used is not for it to auto generate a MM's name into the field.
But rather, we have to give the user a choice to input a Middleman of his/her choice. They will fill up that field themselves.

Contracts already have a field for middlemen profile links.

[Rionxee]

This really has always been an at-your-risk site, do your due diligence beforehand.

[Biggy]

Unfortunately, we’re never going to solve the issue of “scamming” 100%. The middleman just as easily could also perform the scam.

However, I believe Omniscient has done a fantastic job at putting defenses in place to help users avoid being scammed on HF. We have the contract system, a stickied thread in the marketplace with suggested middleman, and even a welcoming PM explaining some of these things.

It’s really important that a user does their due diligence in deals. Some responsibility has to be placed on the individual for choosing not to have someone in place to be a middleman. They are taking a risk in these transactions and allowing themselves the risk of a loss. HF cannot step into every deal and essentially attempt to control the transaction, I think this would frustrate more users than anything, and they’ll somehow find a way around using a “required” middleman anyway, and then still blame HF for them getting scammed. We have a lot of measures in place right now, including scammers being closed when found guilty of said some. Take a look at the deal disputes and see how many members have been closed by Omniscient.

[Cooligan]

Contracts already have a field for middlemen profile links.

The one thing I hope that's eventually implemented is B-rating's for the middlemen that's part of the deal as well.

That'd be really nice to see happen. I can't remember what Omni has said about this specifically though, if anything that is. Not sure if it's been brought up to him directly.

[StarZ]

I don't foresee this happening. As many above have stated deals are at risk. Use common sense, and don't risk anything you can't afford to lose. If that were to happen, scammers would try and circumvent it by just not using a contract. Also, putting a dollar amount limit seems arbitrary. I do think having the warning text be a bit more vibrant could be beneficial. Just make it more eye catching. It kinda just blends in imo.

[IMM0RTAL1TY]

This would certainly be helpful for the marketplace but exit scams are not going to go away just by doing this, as they are prevalent on any type of community where currency is exchanged. This is "HackForums," after all. Nonetheless, a feature like this has my full support.

[Navos]

Yeah let’s force people into getting exit scammed by middle men

Unfortunately, we’re never going to solve the issue of “scamming” 100%. The middleman just as easily could also perform the scam.

One of my suggestions was to involve more than one MM for purchase value above a certain amount.

If two reputable middleman somehow decides to get in cahoots and hug your $1,000 and exit, it'd be a cartoon.

Can it happen? Of course.

We cannot eliminate scamming 100% but there are ways to minimize it.

It's not to say my suggestion is the solution, it's a raw idea that needs refining.

It would help a lot if everyone help to improve and add-on to the suggestion to make it something viable for the community.

[fredom]

I see your idea but who is to deem the mm more trusted than the buyer or the seller? If you don’t trust the deal then don’t do the deal that goes for either party.

So, true there are dubious MM on here as well

[Cooligan]

So, true there are dubious MM on here as well

There are dubious people all over the internet, you should always approach any situation with slight caution just to keep yourself safe.

HF is like any other marketplace in terms of anyone, can do anything.

[SIM-5423828]

Products that are sold on Hackforums should be reviewed by staff, or a Highly reputable member before they're sellable and rated on a scale of if they work and can be sold, or doesn't work and cant be sold. That would make the contract system sincere because it would mean every seller has sold a product that DOES what they say it will, with checks done every so often. Otherwise its up to the user to guess if the seller will defraud them, plus the user runs the risk of a middle man running which is the same reason Omni likely doesn't want to endorse mm by proxy.

Or;

Leave it as is and if you get scammed while using contracts, the scammer gets banned.