[kpown]

Hello members of HF, I am currently a bodybuilder and biochemistry masters student applying to an MD/phd combined program next year. I have been experimenting with and researching various performance enhancing drugs for the last 2 years nonstop. I also associate with a lot of bodybuilders (some ifbb pros) on a regular basis and we exchange information regarding PED use. I also advise many people on a regular basis on nutrition and training.

I want this thread to be a place where all people both natural and enhanced can come to ask for help and get information and recommendations form more experienced users. I also want to encourage friendly debate amongst users with conflicting opinions (CITE RESEARCH). But at the end of the day everyone’s body reacts differently to everything.

The various biochemical pathways of muscle growth are still largely unknown, studies only give us so much information with limited sample sizes and the subjects may not fit your profile! (Post menopausal women, obese men, diabetics, animal studies...etc)

This is why I felt that we could use a place like this to exchange information and help one another.

If this thread blows up I’ll make an offsite Groupchat as well

[Desert]

This is an interesting thread i thank you for your time to create this what are your thoughts on supplements?
i currently take...

1. PreKaged
2. JYM amino acids
3. whey protein powder %100

[kpown]

This is an interesting thread i thank you for your time to create this what are your thoughts on supplements?
i currently take...

1. PreKaged
2. JYM amino acids
3. whey protein powder %100

The Prekaged looks like a fine product based on the ingredients and dosages. Not sure how much it costs though. Only issue is that the creatine HCl is underdosed.

JYM AAs also impressed me with the proper ratio of Leu:Ile:Val. This number should be 3:1:1. Now one important thing to note is that PreKaged and this product both have creatine HCl. Now in terms of creatine dosage, the most widely researched dosage is 5g/day of creatine monohydrate. However companies have been producing designer forms of creatine. Some examples include creatine HCl, CEE, Creatine Kre alk... etc now none of these have the same body of research supporting their efficacy as good old creatine mono does, and they all cost more. However if your product has them in it then don’t even worry about it as long as you’re hitting the proper efficacious dose. Now about that: I’ve read that creatine HCl is more bioavailable than creatine mono so you can take a lower dosage per day and get the same level of saturation. I read 3g is the daily dose for HCl. If you were to take both of those products every day you would be reaching the optimal dose. If you were to skip a few days of these then you would lose the saturation levels and have to almost start over again. Creatine isn’t something that “hits” instantly. It can take up to 20 days of continuous use to reach its full potential. That means you’re gunna want to take it during rest days too.

Lastly, whey powder. Protein powders are mostly a waste of money. The only form of whey protein that is worthwhile is WHEY ISOLATE! Supplement companies know this and they will write whey isolate all over the front of their tubs and bags but don’t listen to it. Read the back and read the fine print. You will see that most of these whey isolate products are actually blends of whey isolate and whey concentrate. Whey concentrate is NOT what we want!

Whey isolate is absorbed very fast, this is why it is ideal post workout when your body is craving amino acids (the molecules that make up proteins) so that it can repair all the damage caused during training.

Other forms of protein powders:

Casein: this is a very slow digesting form of protein. This can be used right before bed so that when you sleep your body still has the building blocks to keep you anabolic and growing while you’re sleeping as opposed to being in a semi fasted state for 8 or so hours.

Whey hydrolyzed: this form of whey is EVEN FASTER than whey isolate, however the benefits in terms of muscle growing vs whey isolate is negligible especially considering the cost difference.

You may also see egg protein listed on a tub OR you could utilize liquid egg whites sold at grocery store. Egg protein is great because it is a low calorie high protein meal replacement option during a prep when you are on low calories. Egg protein absorbs in between whey isolate and casein. It would be considered the middle ground.


In terms of protein food is almost always superior with the exception of the post workout window. However to make the most of this post workout window considering using a whey isolate powder mixed into egg whites for a combination of rapid digesting and medium digesting. If you workout at night and your last meal is often your post workout meal, consider adding in casein too for a triple combo to carry you over to the next morning.

[Desert]

The Prekaged looks like a fine product based on the ingredients and dosages. Not sure how much it costs though. Only issue is that the creatine HCl is underdosed.

JYM AAs also impressed me with the proper ratio of Leu:Ile:Val. This number should be 3:1:1. Now one important thing to note is that PreKaged and this product both have creatine HCl. Now in terms of creatine dosage, the most widely researched dosage is 5g/day of creatine monohydrate. However companies have been producing designer forms of creatine. Some examples include creatine HCl, CEE, Creatine Kre alk... etc now none of these have the same body of research supporting their efficacy as good old creatine mono does, and they all cost more. However if your product has them in it then don’t even worry about it as long as you’re hitting the proper efficacious dose. Now about that: I’ve read that creatine HCl is more bioavailable than creatine mono so you can take a lower dosage per day and get the same level of saturation. I read 3g is the daily dose for HCl. If you were to take both of those products every day you would be reaching the optimal dose. If you were to skip a few days of these then you would lose the saturation levels and have to almost start over again. Creatine isn’t something that “hits” instantly. It can take up to 20 days of continuous use to reach its full potential. That means you’re gunna want to take it during rest days too.

Lastly, whey powder. Protein powders are mostly a waste of money. The only form of whey protein that is worthwhile is WHEY ISOLATE! Supplement companies know this and they will write whey isolate all over the front of their tubs and bags but don’t listen to it. Read the back and read the fine print. You will see that most of these whey isolate products are actually blends of whey isolate and whey concentrate. Whey concentrate is NOT what we want!

Whey isolate is absorbed very fast, this is why it is ideal post workout when your body is craving amino acids (the molecules that make up proteins) so that it can repair all the damage caused during training.

Other forms of protein powders:

Casein: this is a very slow digesting form of protein. This can be used right before bed so that when you sleep your body still has the building blocks to keep you anabolic and growing while you’re sleeping as opposed to being in a semi fasted state for 8 or so hours.

Whey hydrolyzed: this form of whey is EVEN FASTER than whey isolate, however the benefits in terms of muscle growing vs whey isolate is negligible especially considering the cost difference.

You may also see egg protein listed on a tub OR you could utilize liquid egg whites sold at grocery store. Egg protein is great because it is a low calorie high protein meal replacement option during a prep when you are on low calories. Egg protein absorbs in between whey isolate and casein. It would be considered the middle ground.


In terms of protein food is almost always superior with the exception of the post workout window. However to make the most of this post workout window considering using a whey isolate powder mixed into egg whites for a combination of rapid digesting and medium digesting. If you workout at night and your last meal is often your post workout meal, consider adding in casein too for a triple combo to carry you over to the next morning.

Thanks so much or the information you taught me lot of things i did not even know i really thank you a lot for giving me such information.. I now have 1 more thing the protein i am taking now is it okay?

[SIM-2327840]

Great thing you doing here. Subscribing to the thread so I can help members out too🤝

Also, division you are in, training split and cycle?

[kpown]

Great thing you doing here. Subscribing to the thread so I can help members out too🤝

Also, division you are in, training split and cycle?

My goal is to get a pro card in classic physique.

Currently doing a bodypart split. Chest, back, arms, rest, chest, back, legs.

Going to be changing this during my next bulk. Going to be hitting back and chest 2x per week. For back I will be doing one day specifically for rows and one for pulldown movements. Going to also start hitting calves hard.

Currently cutting. Running Test, mast, eq and s23 for anabolics

Using clen and t3 for cutters. Also using hgh.

my next bulk will utilize deca, test, and dbol. Going to also use hgh+insulin. Im not really worried about water bloat. Its honestly beneficial for growth because water = lubrication = injury prevention. Also water often = strength.

As you may know, orals can suppress appetite due to liver toxicity. However this is my first run of pharma dbol which many report to RAISE hunger. Now am I expecting this? No. However, dbol isnt as toxic as many other orals, so the hunger suppression wont be hitting me as fast as something like anadrol or even worse superdrol. My plan is to cycle on and off dbol during the bulk. 2 weeks on at a time. Havent quite decided how much time to take off. Considering 1 week.

Not that i care all that much about raw strength but progressive overload is a key factor in growing so theres that bonus from using the dbol.

---

Thanks so much or the information you taught me lot of things i did not even know i really thank you a lot for giving me such information.. I now have 1 more thing the protein i am taking now is it okay?

Link me the product and ill take a look

This is the one I personally use. Its the best price per serving ive found so far for a 100% pure whey isolate only powder

Amazon: Nutricost whey protein isolate powder

You can choose the flavor. Unflavored is the best deal for price per serving but tastes fuckin nasty. The vanilla tastes good plus its ALMOST as good of a deal. Still the best price per serving ive seen.

[Jaatinen]

I have 100 ml @ 10mg/ml of LGD-4033 and 120ml @ 25mg/ml of ibutamoren.

Would it be best to cycle these as four seperate cycles with 2 months off cycle time between at 4mg lgd and 12.5mg ibutamoren daily for 8 weeks?

Or is there a better way?

Thanks for doing this man :)

[kpown]

I have 100 ml @ 10mg/ml of LGD-4033 and 120ml @ 25mg/ml of ibutamoren.

Would it be best to cycle these as four seperate cycles with 2 months off cycle time between at 4mg lgd and 12.5mg ibutamoren daily for 8 weeks?

Or is there a better way?

Thanks for doing this man :)

That’s a very low dose of both compounds. The sweet spot for lgd without a test base for the vast majority of people is 10mg/day and 25/day for mk677.

As for cycling: these compounds are synergistic. 2 months is not very long for a sarms cycle but it will work moreso for lgd than for mk677. Consider 12 weeks, but monitor your suppression. You can usually tell if you’re being suppressed. However for myself and others I know: 10mg won’t suppress you that much. When I tried 20 without a test base I got noticeable suppression. Experiment because everyone is different in their tolerances.

Mk677 is a great compound and it will increase your gh levels and igf-1 to a statistically significant degree, however it takes several months of consistent use for these changes to have a noticeable affect on performance. Also, by itself it really won’t do all that much for muscle building and fatloss, this is why it’s better to take it with an anabolic like a sarm or steroid for the synergy of the elevated igf-1 levels and recovery that comes with elevated hgh production. The only downside to mk677 is that it will rapidly make you insulin insensitive... now how to combat this? Clean up your diet and pay attention to your carb timing. If you ingest 70% of your daily carb intake around your workout time you should be fine

Additionally some other downsides are when you use this while cutting. Mk677 is a ghrelin mimetic so it will increase appetite. Additionally mk677 seems to make most people hold a lot of water. Both of these scenarios are far from ideal for someone who is cutting.

Lastly, make sure your sarms/RCs are real! Sarms and research chems are often faked or drastically underdosed. Pick a source with 3rd party testing and lots of good reviews from real people.

[Jaatinen]

That’s a very low dose of both compounds. The sweet spot for lgd without a test base for the vast majority of people is 10mg/day and 25/day for mk677.

As for cycling: these compounds are synergistic. 2 months is not very long for a sarms cycle but it will work moreso for lgd than for mk677. Consider 12 weeks, but monitor your suppression. You can usually tell if you’re being suppressed. However for myself and others I know: 10mg won’t suppress you that much. When I tried 20 without a test base I got noticeable suppression. Experiment because everyone is different in their tolerances.

Mk677 is a great compound and it will increase your gh levels and igf-1 to a statistically significant degree, however it takes several months of consistent use for these changes to have a noticeable affect on performance. Also, by itself it really won’t do all that much for muscle building and fatloss, this is why it’s better to take it with an anabolic like a sarm or steroid for the synergy of the elevated igf-1 levels and recovery that comes with elevated hgh production. The only downside to mk677 is that it will rapidly make you insulin insensitive... now how to combat this? Clean up your diet and pay attention to your carb timing. If you ingest 70% of your daily carb intake around your workout time you should be fine

Additionally some other downsides are when you use this while cutting. Mk677 is a ghrelin mimetic so it will increase appetite. Additionally mk677 seems to make most people hold a lot of water. Both of these scenarios are far from ideal for someone who is cutting.

Lastly, make sure your sarms/RCs are real! Sarms and research chems are often faked or drastically underdosed. Pick a source with 3rd party testing and lots of good reviews from real people.

Thank you a lot for the very insightful answer. Firstly I'd like to say that my supplier is the most trusted one from Europe and I've already ran an Ostarine cycle, which I bought from them, and I had very great results. So you do think I should use the compounds together? A lot of people have told me to use lgd for 2 months and mk for 2 months after that. Especially for keeping gains. Also, MK-677 should not be used for longer than 12 weeks, since it causes the growth of amygdala, which makes person more afraid than normal. That's why I won't be using it for longer than 8 weeks at a time. I'm not going to take that risk. LGD cycles are most optimal at 8 weeks since myostatin starts to inhibit muscle growth after 8 weeks on cycle and the suppression starts at around 7 weeks. I've also read that it is no use to take more than 5mg of LGD daily, since the lean muscle mass growth is marginal and doesn't really increase with higher dosages.

And yeah, I'm going to be bulking :)

[kpown]

Thank you a lot for the very insightful answer. Firstly I'd like to say that my supplier is the most trusted one from Europe and I've already ran an Ostarine cycle, which I bought from them, and I had very great results. So you do think I should use the compounds together? A lot of people have told me to use lgd for 2 months and mk for 2 months after that. Especially for keeping gains. Also, MK-677 should not be used for longer than 12 weeks, since it causes the growth of amygdala, which makes person more afraid than normal. That's why I won't be using it for longer than 8 weeks at a time. I'm not going to take that risk. LGD cycles are most optimal at 8 weeks since myostatin starts to inhibit muscle growth after 8 weeks on cycle and the suppression starts at around 7 weeks. I've also read that it is no use to take more than 5mg of LGD daily, since the lean muscle mass growth is marginal and doesn't really increase with higher dosages.

And yeah, I'm going to be bulking :)

The myostatin factor is negligible. If your diet and training are on point you will continue to grow. You can also up your dose if you feel like you're reaching a plateau. As for suppression, this is largely dose-dependent more than time-dependent. The growing of the amygdala, however, is something new I haven't heard before. I'm going to do some research on it tonight and look into whatever study this was noticed in. Some things to note: was it a human or rat study? What dosage was used per kg of test subject bodyweight? etc.

Though I'm not one to use anecdotal evidence to justify points, I can say with certainty that I've ran mk677 for several 3 month periods and had no such fear/timidness side effects.... for what that's worth.

Still, though, the real benefits of HGH products whether they are releasing factors/peptides or secretagogues, frag, or the actual HGH - require extended use for several months.

As for the recommendation of doing mk677 by itself after lgd i think this is a waste. MK677 is not a muscle builder, it's barely anabolic at all on its own. You would be better off running a mild PCT for two weeks, maybe use some HCG, lift heavy and eat in a surplus. SARMs are not steroids. You're not going to lose loads of muscle after coming off of a mild sarms cycle. What you will do is lose water. LGD is a wet bulker. You might see your weight drop when you come off and thing its losing muscle but its not.

[lol]

I know there are so many questions on Google and it's annoying so ima ask you some few questions if you don't mind.

I'm trying to build muscle while burning fat lol (if possible?) and never done cardio or shit before so my questions are; should I do cardio after heavy workouts? If so, should I do cardio everyday? What speed and incline should I do it?

Looking forward to your reply.

Thank you.

[kpown]

I know there are so many questions on Google and it's annoying so ima ask you some few questions if you don't mind.

I'm trying to build muscle while burning fat lol (if possible?) and never done cardio or Clay Davis before so my questions are; should I do cardio after heavy workouts? If so, should I do cardio everyday? What speed and incline should I do it?

Looking forward to your reply.

Thank you.

Judging by your question I'm assuming you're a beginner. Either focus on putting on size or getting shredded. Do not fall into the trap of trying to do two opposite things at once. This is a mistake I see commonly. What happens when two opposing and equal forces meet? They cancel out.

Because you're a beginner though, you are going to be able to build muscle and burn fat at the same time regardless of which you pick. Because of this I say always bulk unless you are starting off at 20% bf or more. At the end of the day, more muscle mass burns more calories at rest. More muscle mass also pushes against the skin and gives the appearance of being leaner than you are.

As for cardio. Dont do cardio unless youre cutting. Only do cardio on a bulk if you have a monster appetite and can out eat the caloric burn. Low intensity cardio has a vast many health and metabolic benefits you can take advantage of if you can out eat the caloric burn. And dont out eat it with shit foods like pizza donuts and such. Clean foods first, fill in the gaps with treats. Have self control. Remember that the quality of the food you put in = the quality of the physique you will see

[SIM-2327840]

2 Qs I would like to ask,
- Why do you do a bodypart split since is inferior to training programs focusing on more frequency aka more protein synthesis aka more growing windows? Do you use a logbook to track progression and progressive overload?
- You advised lol to eat only clean foods and avoid any junk food, why not mention of Caloric deficit vs surplus? At the end of the day this is what will be the bread and butter of fat loss or muscle gain. We can argue all day over this but at the end of the day 100cals of jam=100cals (in terms of body composition and only, im not talking about health or slow/fast carbs)
- Have you maxed out your potential with the anabolics you are in before you need to add more? Cant you get any more stronger=bigger and do you add anabolics or do you do it because its "bulk season why not". Are you really need HGH and insulin at this stage atm? Do you think you may utilizing your tools too early?
..good luck on your pro card, any mandatory poses pics ? 🤝
🤝

[30y old boomer]

Rate my stack:
Creatine HCL - 4g daily
ZMA
Vit A
Fish oil

Also considering a cycle but need to get my acne sorted first :(

[Jaatinen]

The myostatin factor is negligible. If your diet and training are on point you will continue to grow. You can also up your dose if you feel like you're reaching a plateau. As for suppression, this is largely dose-dependent more than time-dependent. The growing of the amygdala, however, is something new I haven't heard before. I'm going to do some research on it tonight and look into whatever study this was noticed in. Some things to note: was it a human or rat study? What dosage was used per kg of test subject bodyweight? etc.

Though I'm not one to use anecdotal evidence to justify points, I can say with certainty that I've ran mk677 for several 3 month periods and had no such fear/timidness side effects.... for what that's worth.

Still, though, the real benefits of HGH products whether they are releasing factors/peptides or secretagogues, frag, or the actual HGH - require extended use for several months.

As for the recommendation of doing mk677 by itself after lgd i think this is a waste. MK677 is not a muscle builder, it's barely anabolic at all on its own. You would be better off running a mild PCT for two weeks, maybe use some HCG, lift heavy and eat in a surplus. SARMs are not steroids. You're not going to lose loads of muscle after coming off of a mild sarms cycle. What you will do is lose water. LGD is a wet bulker. You might see your weight drop when you come off and thing its losing muscle but its not.

Thank you again for the great answer man. I don't know about the study, I've read about it from Reddit. Many of the MK-677 (longtime) users have reported increased fear after coming off. I'll use the mk677 with the LGD for sure. I won't do pct for sarms though. I'll see if I'm going to up the dose or not. Time will show.